Faith's Edge

First of all I think the debate is fantastic and all the points your raise are good ones. The beauty of disagreement, especially when it is amicable, is that we really get to know ourselves in the process.

Now, in response to your post.

The distinction you make between worship in general as a response of gratitude to God's giving and a worship gathering is useful and important because people (including me) do often make the mistake of assuming worship is confined to what we do on a Sunday morning. However, I think you undervalue the worship gathering by treating it as nothing more than a group of people doing together what they all do separately the rest of the time. I think there is ample scriptural emphasis on the gathering as a unique, even crucial, way of demonstrating gratitude to God because of what GOD does in the gathering through the spirit and the presence of Christ. Christ is really present in a worship gathering in a way that Christ is not in our daily acts of gratitude or individual worship.

What I find lacking in your critique is precisely this emphasis on God's action. I'm going to sound uber-reformed here, but isn't even our ability to express gratitude to God a gift from God? Aren't the people in a worship gathering there because God has called them there? You say that one has to know Christ before you can worship Christ, but that makes worship a one-way street. What about the people that have been brought to a gathering by Christ, without knowing him, so that Christ in them can worship God. Afterall, do we really worship Christ? Or do we worship God with/in Christ?

As a preacher I don't worry about trying to do the "hard sell" of evangelism, because that suggests that it is an effort/success model. ie: I put in enough effort I will get success. Nor do I think of my daily acts of gratitude as "soft sell" because I don't (or I shouldn't) do them for other people, but for God. Instead, I think of evangelism as what happens, because God does it, when I am faithful to the apostolic calling. That calling is to proclamation of the gospel, which is an act of gratitude, but a special one because scripture tells us that somehow in that act Christ is made really present and those who hear it receive baptism in the spirit - the defining sign of the Christian.

So I object that one has to know Christ to worship. In a sense we all start every worship gathering not knowing him and in the event itself He makes himself known to us.

First off let me say... I'm making my first blog comment! Woohoo!

Okay now that I got that out of my system. I think the discussion is an interesting one, but I lean more to towards Derrick on this one, even though I consider myself pretty darn Reformed. First off God is present in everything we do, no more in a Worship Service than in our every day lives. This means that worship is the thing we do every day, every minute of our lives. All our actions should be for the worship of God. As Calvin would agree, a man working hard at his 9-5 job in the mill is being just as worshipful as a Benedictine monk. (Now I would argue that the Mill worker is being more worshipful, but we'll get into that later) Secondly, what we do on Sundays is Liturgy. I think of it as a good way of reminding ourselves of what we are trying to do throughout the rest of our lives. How God should be present not just on Sunday mornings, but Monday mornings too. Finally, if Sunday morning services are not a good way to introduce new people to the church (which I totally agree is true) then we need to think of other ways to introduce people to our faith. Though there are many issues that I find with this; because that tends to develop "alternative" worship services or youth groups. I'm not saying those are bad, but what I am saying is that I think they tend to split up the community instead of re-inforcing it. We create "seperate" interests group in the church instead of creating a truly multi-cultural, multi-generational worship environment. I am a much bigger proponent of re-thinking how we use our liturgy on Sunday mornings. I for one want the Sunday services to be as welcoming as any other time of the week. I believe that we all have different ways of using liturgy or expressing faith, but why can't we do that together?

Sorry if it sounds like I'm undervaluing worship gatherings. It's because I am. When the avergae church goer spends only about 7% of their waking hours in church, the gathering itself is a blip on the radar of life.

Yes, gathering for worship is crucial. Absolutely. I hold, however, to the belief that the worship gathering is NOT the place where people meet Christ. It might be where they meet him again. I also have to disagree with the idea that Christ is more present (or present differently) in worship as opposed to His presence in everyday life. Our awareness might be heightened and maybe his level of pleasure with us is different, but Christ is the same whether I'm in chapel or in the shower.

Your "uber-reformed" comments are right on. It is God who does the work in all phases of our journey. If we go into some kind of worsihp gathering, it is indeed God that draws us there. I also agree that we don't want to get sucked into the trap of success-oriented preaching or worship. It detracts from the activity that solely belongs to our Creator.

That brings me back to undervalueing worship gatherings. God doing God's work of drawing God's children to God's self has no need to drag us to church on Sunday morning. Why should God drag us to a temple made by human hands to reveal Himself to us? Worship gatherings, I would argue, serve the human need for community more than they serve as a place where worship is occuring. The decline of the mainline church has alot to do, I believe with people being disconnected to their need for community or fulfilling that need elsewhere: bars, clubs, coffee shops, stadiums, etc...

maybe what we're running up against here isn't so much a disagreement of theology so much as it is a difference of opinion over ministry style. I think people are looking more for the Acts 2 model of living life together (they will know we are His disciples by our love for one another) than they are looking for a worship experience that is isolated from the rest of their existence. I also hold to the addage attributed to St. Francis: preach the Gospel at all times, use words when necessary. The logocentrism of our reformed worship I think oftentimes impedes people from experiencing God whereas an act of service/love/mercy/justice (initiated by the Holy Spirit of God working within us, of course)shows the face of Christ much more clearly.

i don't think I can buy the idea that we come to every worship gathering not knowing Christ. If that was the case I wouldn't go. Or I'm going because egomaniacal God says "Hey, Derrick, come worship me!". I do buy that Christ CAN be revealed in the worship gathering, but again, that's got alot to do with the Holy Spirit opening the eyes of faith and a worship gathering is not essential to that process. Helpful, but not essential. So maybe that is a theological difference.

I need to think about this more and I have to grocery shop. More later...

I just can't stay away... I also went and invited a bunch more people to weigh in on this debate though I think they'll probably all be on your side Derrick.

I can see where you might feel that a worship gathering be reserved as special might make God seem egocentric - especially if it is God who brings us there in the first place, but I think you've kind of missed the point. Yes Worship Gatherings account for a small proportion of a person's waking hours, Yes God brings us there so we can be with Her in a special way, but isn't this similar to your relationship with Marnie? I don't know about you two, but Stacia and I have to occasionally set time aside to be together. That time amounts to a very small proportion of our lived time together, but it is extremely high in significance and we are definitely present to each other in a special way during those times...

Worship gatherings are like that with God except that God goes one step farther than making relationship on a linear (ie: between two people) level. God makes relationship circular by saying that doing it communally is key. Wherever 2 or 3 are gathered... not 1. YES you can be in relationship with Christ by yourself, but not fully.

Your overall stance seems to be very pragmatic. It seems to be drawn from a very astute analysis of everyday reality. That is to be commended, but part of being a Christian (in my understanding) is to do things which strictly speaking, don't make sense from a pragmatic perspective. It requires faith that God is in fact doing what God promises. It doesn't seem like putting so much value in an activity we spend so little time doing makes sense. But scripture tells us that breaking bread together and proclaiming the gospel - these are revolutionary acts.

"Christians respond to God both in communal worship and service and in personal acts of worship and discipleship. The life of the Christian flows from the worship fo the church, were identity as a believer is confirmed and werhe one is commissioned to a life of discipleship and of personal response to God. The believer's life of response and discipleship flows into the church's life of worship and service." (W-5.1001)

yah, i just took the worship and sacrament's exam, but i really like this statement. corporate worship is to weave in and out and through our own lives of personal worship. sorry aric, but Christ is always present all the time. corporate worship is to remind us of this and to see the face of Christ in those around us. then we go out and, with the strenght of the Holy Spirit do God's work. we come back to church, ideally at least, to get recharged to do this again.

so there. pbth.

pardon me. i'm always on my own side.

Wow. I'm so not Reformed. Big surprise, right?

(I've talked elsewhere in the blogosphere about how I reject the God-is-the-only-agent strain of Reformation theology. If you want to hear more, come find me or email me or something. In fact, I'll skip that aspect entirely.)

I don't think God is equally present everywhere. For example, in the Bible, at certain times people take off their shoes or do other special things because God is present at a particular time in a particular way. I think this sense of the sacred is crucial, and almost totally lacking in our culture. We'll use language of the sacred to speak of our idols but not of our God. That's sad.

And even if God is exactly equally present everywhere and at all times, our awareness of God isn't equally active at all times, and the difference between the two is semantics to me, since we don't have God-meters to measure whether God is someplace or not. We experience God where and when we experience God, and as far as I know only a few incredible people have this experience every moment of every day. Is the potential there? Apparently, but I'm not there and I haven't met anyone who is there, so we have to deal with differing experiences of God's presence.

The end result is that we experience God in some ways and places more than others. It isn't at all universal as to where or when, but some situations help evoke a condition of awe in us, and awe is an indication that you are approaching the transcendent.

Furthermore, it is possible to evoke this sense of awe intentionally. All cultures in all times develop rites of passage, for example, or rituals of worship, that demarcate a certain time and place for encounters with the divine, building of community bonds, and personal transformation.

In short, I think that worship is an excellent place to encounter Christ, to recommit to Christ, to become a Christian, etc. Ritual acts have effects on a person's state of mind, of being, that coffee-house conversations and even acts of service do not. They formalize symbology and enable people to become participants in the being of divinity. They make meaning, and you need more than experience - you need meaningful experience which is reflected upon. This is absolutely crucial to any religion, and I think, to any human being.

Do I love worship as it is, as I've experienced it? Sometimes, but mostly not. We need to be *more* intentional about how we worship because we can have meaningful responses to God. We can approach God, we can turn away from God, etc.

In fact, I think the best cohort for postmodernity is premodernity. We lack old-school rituals, we lack a sense of the sacred, of the holy as something special and set apart. It should be a wonderful surprise that we find the sacred in everyday life, not an assumption. I see that assumption as arrogant. We're saying "of course God is there", as if God is something we understand and can predict. As if God is saying "oh, the Reformed theologians think I'm x y and z, so I must be." If we want to find God, we have to go looking, not just sit around and tell ourselves its happening. We have to make ourselves aware, in a disciplined way. We clean and prepare for a guest who is visiting our home. Why are we afraid to prepare for God? A way we prepare for God is ritual. I think worship is such a ritual, and I think its crucial.

well, Doug, the last thing you'll see me shy away from is being arrogant, so I have to reassert that I expect to see God in everyday life. I look for God in everyday and while it always amazes me, it never surprises me.

I need to restate my original opinion: I don't think worship is the best method to introduce people to Christian faith. Worship is important. It is crucial. Worship is the natural expresion of our gratitude for all that God does in our lives. Corporate worship, at its best, draws a community into an amazing sacred space where people feel both love of God and love of neighbor. I've had worship experiences like that, but I have to say, the frequency in which I have those experiences is diminishing.

Aric, I think your analogy about our relationships with our spouses proves my point. Of course I do spontaneous, non-pragmatic things to nourish my relationship with my wife. The key word there is relationship. Those extravagancies come from love, deep love that makes me do stupid things and take big risks.

That's how worship is for me. I think about the woman who anointed Jesus. The disciples said she was wasting resources and Jesus said she was doing a beautiful thing; a beutiful thing based on the knowledge of who Christ was. I'm willing to sing out loud (when I hate my voice), stand in front of people and share my heart (even though I'm a total introvert), pray aloud about my joys and concerns (even though I'd rather keep them to myself), play my bass in public (even though I'm pretty mediocre musician), raise my hands( even though I think other people look silly when they do it)...all this because I love God and I deeply appreciate what God has done in my life. Yes, a person from outside the Christian community CAN experience God in a worship gathering. I've never said the contrary. I don't think the majority of worship gatherings are set up to facilitate both conversion (a word I hate) and discipleship for a non-believer.

Thanks, Kat, for bringing in the directory for worship because I think that is one of the best written documents we Presbyterians have access to (other than, you know, the Bible) to express our faith and vocation. I think that piece about worship is right on.

Josh, I think it would be great if we could get our liturgy to be more open and welcoming, but that is still working with the "If you build it, they will come" model. I think in postmodernity we have to jettison that model and make the initial contacts outside of the worship service and then, after relationships have been built, can we provide an open welcoming place for folks.

One last thing. One thing I took away from my Gospels class last semester is an understanding that Jesus was abolishing the religious institution of the day, that being the temple. What he instated in its place was a communal gathering where the common elements found in the home would be used to represent the sacred. Interesting how we have formalized and reinstitutionalized those things. Jesus tells the woman at the well that true worshippers will worship in spirit and in truth, not at a location. Sometimes in our conversations about worship I get the sense that we are trying to reinstate the temple and that we seminarians are just the cult functionaries of the future. Look at Mark's account of the cleansing of the temple. It is flanked by a story about a fig tree that does not produce fruit. It's a metaphor, the temple is the fig tree. What I think is arrogance is to say that religious institutions which Jesus called useless, irrelevant, dried trees can actually be the primary place where we see God.

Round 3

Okay.. just to be sure I remain focused here, what we are really debating about is whether a worship gathering is a good place for someone to meet Christ for the first time. So far I haven't heard anyone express the extreme opinion at either end - you are not saying someone CAN'T meet Christ in Worship and I am not saying that someone CAN'T meet Christ somewhere else. So we're clear, because debate can tend to polarize - we are not at opposite extremes.

About the issue of Christ's presence, I am with Doug that saying God is present at all times equally is somewhat meaningless and I don't find that anywhere in the Bible. The Bible does affirm that there is nowhere that God cannot go, but it also seems to suggest that there are sacred places and times where God is in a unique way. Worship gatherings are clearly (or they should be) one of those special Kairos times where Christ is uniquely present in a way that He is NOT at other times. Again this does NOT mean that you can't meet Christ elsewhere it just means that you can assuredly meet Christ in a very special way in a Worship Gathering. That alone, to me makes it clear that worship is a good place for people to meet Christ for the first time..

On the other hand - when I think of a Worship Gathering I have a much more Eastern Orthodox cosmic understanding of that act then I hear reflected in Kat's or Derek's descriptions. Worship does serve to replenish God's people for ministry yes, but that is not its primary function. Worship is ontological - that is to say we fulfill WHO we are made to be by worshipping. The act of worship itself is not primarily of practical, but of cosmological significance - Worshipping itself is an end not a means to an end. The real presence of Christ in the sacraments and the proclamation is something we can only experience when we fulfill our created purpose to be God's worshipping people. In this sense I think all the other ways we meet Christ.. as a homeless man on the street, as a friend or loved one, as our own empathy for others... these are all merely preludes to meeting Christ in person in worship.

Lastly, I would like to respond to your understanding that Christ was trying to abolish the religious institutions of the day. I think this is a really flawed reading of the New Testament. Jesus is an observant Jew - a lay rabbi, a part of the tradition not against it. Jesus does have some harsh criticisms for the temple and many religious people of his time, but they are against hypocrisy in that tradition not against the tradition itself. The fig tree is stark symbolism yes, but it signifies the condition of the practice in the temple, which was corrupt, NOT the temple itself. When he goes up to the temple to toss the money lenders out he objects precisely because they are sullying his father's house which should be a sacred place of prayer! Christ quotes Hebrew scriptures because he adheres to them. He observes Jewish feasts, he uses Jewish symbolism, language and metaphor. The ordinary objects that he sanctifies were already sacred in Jewish tradition - he institutes communion RIGHT AFTER saying the traditional Jewish blessing over the bread and the wine for passover. Furthermore the gospel writers themselves had plenty of reasons of their own to be polemical against the temple in Jerusalem. Yes, as the Pharisees of our day we should be chastened by these scriptures and guard against hypocrisy in our selves, but it would be a grave misunderstanding of Jesus to suggest he wanted to abolish institutional religion. I think that suggestion owes more to postmodern individualist centrism than to a reading of the gospel.

I'm pushing the envelope here with the temple stuff, but I want to keep pushing a bit.

I don't see anywhere in the gospel that Jesus is trying to establish an institution. He is establishing a way of life. A better way to be human and to be in relationship with our sisters and brothers and a better way to be in relationship with God. Marcus Borg in one of his chapters of "The Meaning of Jesus" talks about Jesus as a movement initiator. That description of Jesus makes me chaff because it sounds like Jesus was trying to start an NGO. Instead I think Jesus was showing us how to be truly human and truly in relationship to the Divine. Jesus respected the tradition, not the institution. There is a difference.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on alot of this stuff, but I appreciate the dialogue. Again, it is good for us to point out that we're not arguing extreme positions here. Ultimately what I think we all hope for is that we live into our identity of "the church reformed , always reforming". i would love for our worship to be more welcoming that a person could come in off the street and instantly feel the love of Christ. That sounds like a great church to me! I would love for church to really highlight the sacred in our lives (and heighten our awareness of the sacred in the mundane). Most importantly, i would love for our worship to be more relevant. So much of "spiritual" life is in a vacuum that is seperate from the day-to-day. The churches that are experiencing growth are often those that are working (for good or ill) towards making the Gospel meaningful to people's daily lives.

If a "lay person" may chime in....

I put that in quotes because I take much pleasure...possibly too much...reminding clergy folk about the Priesthood of ALL Believers.

This actually brings me to a point that has not yet been mentioned here. When Jesus died, the temple curtain tore from top to bottom. God was clearly sending a message there. I read that to mean that the Temple was no longer the sacred space that it used to be.
That brought an end to the "holy of holies." While that might sound sad to those of us who long for something sacred, it was also the mark of something new...and better.

I think what Derrick is talking about is incarnational ministry. Through the sacrifice of his son, God became available to us in a way that he was not before. (sorry, no inclusive language here...only because it usually sounds ridiculous and pretentious to me). So we as ministers (that's all of us) can share Christ with others while simply living life with them in a real world setting. I believe people need to be loved into the Kingdom. I am a huge fan of corporate worship, and it is very meaningful to me, especially when I worship with people I love.

But worship is intimate. When we were in Portland this summer, I was a visitor at a different church every Sunday. It was very difficult for me to engage in genuine worship during those services, because I didn't know anyone. It felt awkward. Harsh. Shrill. Too much intimacy with people I had never met before. And that is coming from someone who has had many years of wonderful worship experiences, and already buys into the idea that we are bound together through the blood of Christ. If I had wandered in off the street as a "post-christian," I imagine I would have been much more uncomfortable, and not very likely to return.

Incarnational ministry involves loving people in the places they already are, rather than dragging them to an unfamiliar place where they will be uncomfortable. Most of you who read this are current or future clergy. I think your time in ministry will be much better spent if you are loving your neighbors more hours per week than you are preparing for a Sunday morning worship service.

I tend to agree with Derrick that the majority of ministry should be done outside of the church walls. We often isolate ourselves at church, and caese to be salt and light.

For the record, I absolutely agree with those of you who have talked about God showing up in a different way during corporate worship...and that many people encounter God for the first time through spiritual (not merely emotional) experiences during those times, that are often beyond words. I just think it is very unlikely for a non-christian/post-christian to happen upon a gathering like that and then feel comfortable enough to stay. That's why I think the focus should be on loving the people in your neighborhood and being relevant in your community, rather than on crafting an ideal Sunday morning worship service.

i agree that ministry should take place outside church walls as well as inside them. it should take place everywhere and at all times.

the problem is that i think the alternative being offered to worship as a way to experience christ is a sort of volunteerism. i mean, what is being described here is a church that is nothing more than a social service organization with an Imaginary Friend. what sets the church apart? that we do good things for others and love them because of christ, while the hundreds of thousands of other service organizations do good things and love others for some other reason? if that's the case, i see no reason for the church to exist at all. you should just join a service organization and love others. why have clergy? why be at seminary?

to me, the church can't be just another service organization, even one with special claims about why we do it. it has to be more than a gathering with an inspirational speaker and some music. we claim to be more, so we should be more. and to be more, we need to aim higher. church shouldn't be comfortable, it should be revolutionary. it should be earth-shattering. it should be like being reborn, remade, transformed. i don't think you can do this only through service projects and community-building exercises and coffeehouse talks and bible studies. those are all involved, but there needs to be a point where the stops are pulled out and we shout about who we are.

to me, the main place for this is worship. that is what sets us apart in our concrete behavior from other service and self-help groups. we do those things, but we are rooted in something Else, and every week we reaffirm that rootedness in a centering, ritual, evocative act that is unabashedly premodern.

and i want to know - if worship is not the best place to meet christ, what is? without the powerful tools of worship, how are we more than an NGO, or a bunch of well-meaning but delusional people?

and please don't think i'm talking about presbyterian/mainline worship here. for the most part, i have experienced it as flaccid, half-hearted and, dare i say it, a little cowardly. i feel safe and secure in worship, and that's a problem, because no one who is safe and secure changes. change, transformation, comes from tension, the tension (ideally) between who you are and who christ calls you to be.

should there also be security offered in worship? of course, but it is the security that one needs to hear about when one is working to serve god, not another voice reinforcing a community's sense of entitlement and self-satisfaction. it should be a haven because for the rest of the week you were busy trying to live in the kingdom, which is really really hard, but it should also be a kick in the ass that sends you back out there again, into the teeth of the world, with a sense of hope and maybe even a little fire.

again, I think we are beginning to move into "agree to disagree" territory, but let me just say a couple more things.

I absolutely agree that worship is vital for the CHRISTIAN. For the non-christian, post-christian, former-christian, worship is an anomaly, a riddle, or just plain weird. It is not something they are capable of outside of the relationship with Christ.

So where is the best place to meet Christ? I don't think there is one place. Let me give an example. Early in the summer I blogged about meeting my neighbors while they were outside being loud and drinking. From that inital encounter, relationships formed, relationships where I felt completely comfortable sharing my faith with them and they felt completely comfortable sharing their lives with me. This happened in a very short amount of time. What resulted from that sharing was that two of the friends I made came to worship to hear me preach. They enjoyed my sermon and were welcomed warmly, but worship is not a part of their programming. I think more imapct was had on their lives by sitting on the patio, drinking beer and sharing my faith in that context than by the Sunday worship service. Granted, that particular worship service was not the kind I would have liked to have invited them to, but I think the foreignness of the experience would have been universal.

I agree with you, Doug, that the church should be revolutionary, but I don't think it is primarily in our worship where the revolution should happen. Our revolution should happen in the ways we live our lives. It is biblical that our light would shine before the world so that people would see our good works and glorify God. The Christian life, including but not limited to, worship should be the revolution. Frankly, I have no problem with the church being a worshipping social service agency. Jesus Christ has certainly been more to me than an "imaginary friend". He has been a life changing reality to me that has caused me to reorient my life in such a way that it is lived for others to the glory of God.

The question I have is how are we getting those outside of the church inside the church to worship if that is the best place for them to meet Christ for the first time (which is what my original post was concerning)? What is going to attract them to a church service? Our billboards? Our pretty buildings? Our sexy pastors? (God forbid!!!) The initial contact has to be made in the way we live our lives.

i think we should completely reprogram how we approach worship. at this point it is almost completely formulaic, and it is a formula that, as derrick sort of points out obliquely, was developed for previous people in previous times with previous modes, expectations, etc.

i think thankfulness is intuitive. when you receive something, you feel good for lots of reasons. i think awe is intuitive. when you witness something amazing, or have some powerful realization, you feel awe. i think it is necessary and possible to intentionally foster love between people. and i think that if people don't have an inkling that there is more to life, that there is something behind what they experience, something more fundamental, then they'll never enter a church or know christ no matter what we do.

so, thankfulness, awe, love and the experience of god. that's worship to me in a nutshell. unfortunately, we're buried alive under heaps of baggage that have long since gone stale, and what we tend to do on sunday won't evoke those things in people who aren't already churchified. so, instead of abandoning worship as a fundamental common ritual and entry point into faith, we need to change how we worship.

this ties into my post to the Chapel Blog - if we can't even experiment in seminary, things look kind of hopeless. the people to whom our modes of worship speak will die of old age, and that'll be it. we'll be a curiosity and not a whole lot more.

so, i agree - worship as we do it won't tend to reach those groups with which derrick is concerned. so we need to do it differently.

when i was about ten i found a passageway under the old church building at my home church. down there poking around i found a bulletin from the 1950s. it was almost identical to the one we were using forty years later. not because it was ancient tradition, like the orthodox liturgy - because the church is lazy.

we TALK about reaching out, but we almost exclusively ACT like we expect people to come to us, and clearly they're not. so Derrick is right - we need to go to them. but Aric is also right - we need to go to them in a spirit of worship.

lastly, i do think that jesus fundamentally challenged the institutionalism of his day and essentially called for it to end, as represented by the rending of the temple curtain, talking about the temple being torn down and then raised up anew, etc. what he seemed to be instituting, the new tradition or new way of life, was still centered on worship. the Acts community certainly seemed to worship a lot. i still think that to affect the change into this new way of life, you need something radical, ritualized, to jar the consciousness loose and enable you to move into a new mode of being. the stage for this is set by relationship-building, perhaps, though there are plenty of biblical stories of transformation without any relationship-building at all, but people have lots of relationships, and lots of conversations about what they believe, but it seems when we talk about coming to know christ, we still mean something more.

(and i'm always happy to disagree, and glad that people disagree, because we're all just wrong in different ways)

disclaimer: this is julia if you like my comments, nick if not.

first impression, wow.

ok, getting over that thought i will be brief. normally i run screaming from theological conversations but i am going to make an effort to avoid that temptation since i have recently come to the conclusion that this is not helping either party. we can learn from each other and it is in fact in our best interests to do so.

second disclaimer: i am going to be slightly harsh, please do not take offense if i over simplify as i am not ready to put in the level of detail you all have. my intent is sincere.

in my opinion worship is what happens in a person when they find themselves in a moment of authentic connection with God/Christ/Allah/Buddha/etc. of course for those called christians we limit the case to the first two. by my definition, those that do not know their god cannot be in worship. however, i do entertain the idea of people being able to worship on a subconscious level as they are beginning to know their god. worship is influenced by your state of mind and surroundings at the time. this is completely separate from worship services.

worship services are moments in faith where hopefully the participants connect with god at the same time and place. this is problematic though as people are so different, each responding to a different stimulus and in their own place in understanding god.

worship services are meant for good but leave most frustrated. i grew up in a church where most people went out of social and compulsatory reasons. the services were rituals that made me feel connected to my family and to the others there but not really to God. in that same church at youth group i felt an extraordinarily strong connection to God. thus i do not feel that this place was reverent as one moment i could feel deeply worshipful and the next nothing. i think that churches and other places of worship can have a holiness if you believe that they do. if you are such a person, take off your shoes and feel the power of God in that place. if you are not (which is my case), respect those that feel different and find the place in your mind where you can find that same state of reverence.

i believe christ is present in all of life, in every breath. he is no more present in any place at anytime. he hears your prayer just as loudly as he hears a church praying together. i do believe in the power of community, that we give each other strength and the God will use us to help our neighbors so in this way group prayer and worship services are important. a worship service ought to be something of a celebration, so why not go to the party you have the best time at? this is grossly simplified of course, but i think this is the core of why there are so many styles of worship and why we should respect each that proves to be effective for some group of people.

i do not wish to prolong the conversation so do not feel the need to respond. i just wanted to make myself think through the issue and let you know my thoughts. i really do feel as some said previously that you are at the point of just disagreeing.

back to work, thanks for listening

Ok. Time for me (nick this time) to chime in as well. Although for the most part I agree with all the non-student folk who've posted.

I wanted to make comments on a couple of lines from other posts, then I'll write a general comment or two.

First Aric said..."Aren't the people in a worship gathering there because God has called them there? You say that one has to know Christ before you can worship Christ, but that makes worship a one-way street."

Of course people are in a worship gatherings because God called them there, but don't people have a choice to respond to God's call? Don't we as a church have a duty to be Christ's "hands and feet" to the world?

I think we do and our response is represented in worship (even in the reformed tradition...calvin would argue that thanksgiving is our repsonse).

Does that make worship a one way street? I would argue no it doesn't. Worship takes place in a relationship, that implies a two-way street. Worship is our response to the grace that God has gifted to us.

Second Josh said...
"if Sunday morning services are not a good way to introduce new people to the church (which I totally agree is true) then we need to think of other ways to introduce people to our faith."

I think this is Derrick's primary arguement here. Not to put words in his mouth, but personal relationship seems to be the "answer" to that question.

Josh again said..."We create "seperate" interests group in the church instead of creating a truly multi-cultural, multi-generational worship environment. I am a much bigger proponent of re-thinking how we use our liturgy on Sunday mornings."

**applause**

I totaly agree with you on this point. I think this is also a counter point to the "if you build it, they will come" model. Worship to me is not about how perfect can we be this week. It's not about perfecting the band or music in such a way that it attracts more people.

Worship is about being in a loving community together responding to the love that God has shown us. This is why I agree with Marnie and that wierd feeling when I go to worship at a new church. I also think this is why Julia could feel more comfortable in a youth group service, than the sunday morning one.

"Ritual acts have effects on a person's state of mind, of being, that coffee-house conversations and even acts of service do not." - Doug

I would strongly argue against this point Doug. In many moments in my life, I have felt the presence of God most clearly staring into the face of someone I just helped. The look on the face on the woman I just helped pickout and wrap christmas presents for her young childern. The honest thankfulness in her eyes made me feel so grateful that I had the ability to help her and her children.

Rituals are/can be powerful to individuals but they are typically not the entry point for a person.

"The Bible does affirm that there is nowhere that God cannot go, but it also seems to suggest that there are sacred places and times where God is in a unique way." - Aric

Where does it suggest this? I happen to recall the story of Moses removing his shoes on "holy ground." This is ground that as a shepard he would have walked through and by many times before. It's not the ground that makes it holy it's the realization of God that makes it holy. God is holy, not the temple, not the ground, not the church.

I am also reminded of the story of Jacob (i believe) that woke up from a dream claiming that God had been there the whole time and he just now realized it.

These are two examples of how God is Holy not a place or event.

--

I just wanted to say...

Current (contempary and traditional) worship services/gatherings are rather unsuccessful in connecting me to God. Sorry, I wish I could say otherwise but I honestly can't. I wish that it were that easy. I wish that every new person off the street would feel the connections that you all are describing about your worship experiences. I just don't think it's that easy.

Typically in a worship environment about the time I start to feel the presense of God, something shifts and moves on, and I lose that connection to God. I do often feel connected to those around me in worship. I think that worship is important, just as all others have said. This for me is what ritual does...it connects me to those who have gone before and those who journey with me...I think that's what Julia meant when she said she found herself in the connection with God.

ok. rambling over.

again, we definitely agree about how worship tends to be experienced. i don't think its more amazing or moving for me that it is for you or derek, actually, i just maintain that it *should* be, and that the fact that it isn't is our failing as worship leaders and not a problem with corporate worship as an act.

when i was talking about ritual, i was speaking in an anthropological sense, in that ritual has been a powerful way that people have made sense of their lives and of transcendence for thousands of years. i think that because we have a materialist and instrumentalist culture, we have given up these rituals, and so we're relegated to having to improvise almost all of our meaning-making. while this is freeing, i think its also damning in the long-term, a reason why recent generations have seemed to feel so disconnected and untethered and lost.

sometimes i look at it like jazz. you need to do a lot of rote practice to learn the basics, after which you can begin to learn to improvise. but you still return to the basics to root the music and give it meaning and structure. and maybe, at some point of mastery, you give up the basics you learned entirely and move to "pure music", but as much as i wish you could, i don't think you can get there without the foundational stuff. and while pure music is the ideal, the fundamentals are how most people will approach music.

so i think i have something to post on my blog now.

I really like the Jazz metaphor. I agree that it can be very good, but the problem is if the person off the street has never heard the tune before it can be difficult to "join in" (ie. the cords may be unfamilar or unknown) and thus worship is not the best entry point for an individual. Also imagine walking in as a bass player and then not feeling welcome because there is already two people playing the bass and they are sooo much "better" than you. I think that many of us who are used to "playing" in service forget how alien it can be the first time.

I agree that we fail as corporate worship leaders all the time, but it's not a matter of just getting better that will *fix* the fact that non-churched people don't feel welcomed by our litergy and such. This culture, in this time, in this place seems to me to be one that does not connect well by corporate worship. That relationships is a much stronger entry point.

After reading the previous NINETEEN posts, I think I am now too warn out to add anything relevant, helpful or at all witty.

Still . . . I will anyway ;-)
The conversation has certainly been enlightening and thoughtful. As one of those "practitioners" and facilitators of the worship experience no matter what you think about the how's and what's, I think that, boiled down, worship needs to be an authentic response to God defined by a particular community's spiritual and physical context and experience of the holy. As vague as that is, it is also about as specific as I think we should be. We make room for the myriad of ways Jesus may touch any of us and/or ways in which we may need to be open to Christ.
My hope is to create enough "space" in the worship experience for Christ to be real at sometime, somehow, if even only for a moment. Then, that "glimpse" of God becomes transformative both within and outside of any worship experience.

Anyhoo . . . like most Sundays, I ramble ;-)

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